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Forum Newbie
Group: Forum Members
Last Login: 25/10/2007 18:27:06
Posts: 2,
Visits: 1
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Hi everyone,
I am a newbie to this board, and SO glad to have found you all tonight. Thank you for providing this wonderful service.
A bit of history: I have had my koi (4) and goldfish (6) in a pond of about 200 gallons for nearly 2 years; healthy, growing rapidly. The pond was unfortunately not deep enough (concrete pond with a large waterfall, plus additional aerators in case the pump failed) as the koi grew larger.
I decided to bring in a pond specialist, move the fish to a temporary tank, and have the pond dug down to about 2 feet. I live in Southern California (form being pasted below that was recommended) so it doesn't get too cold, but they needed depth as they grew.
The fish were in a temporary holding tank outdoors with their original water for about 4 days. They started gasping for air at the top after 2 and they were lethargic; I did a 50/50 water change-out and the gasping ended. They were also not eating - unusual as they are usually very hungry fish. They had aerators/bubblers, and a filter.
Once the new pond was ready, I filled it up and let it run for about 24 hours. Crystal clear water (not that it's an indicator and I did test the water -- see below), with rocks on the bottom (black rock) as they had before, only rinsed off. I put the same aerators back in, addition to their great aeration they have from a huge water source. (keep in mind they've lived in this pond for years, no problem in that area)
I tested the water with 2 small fish from the store before putting my fish back in. The fish were fine after 24 hours.
I put my fish back into their new, dug out tank. I noticed they were behaving lethargically, wouldn't eat, and then one of my weaker fish that always gets sick first (he's an inbred fancy fin so they often tend to get sick before the others) starting having issues - inability to balance, was upside down (but not lethargic). All of them started gasping again at the surface or hanging at the bottom, and also some tried to get underneath the waterfall.
I took him out of the tank, and moved him to the quarantine pond again (which is of course areated and has a filter along with a heater to 70 degrees fahrenheit). By morning, he was fine - except almost all of the fish in the main pond were dead. Three of the four koi were side-up floating. One koi was on her side barely breathing. I moved her to the quarantine tank where she died about six hours later. (I would have euthanized her, but given that the fancy fish recovered so quickly I thought she may too with new water). Two of the five goldfish were also dead. (I did keep one frozen in case they're of any use in an autopsy; the others are buried in my yard in a fish casket - yes, Im very attached to these fish).
I'm fairly well schooled (have a very powerful microscope, test kits, and I know how to use them fairly well) on koi and goldfish, and I'm a researcher by trade. Before putting the fish in, I ran balance tests (and before and after tests) on the water to compare for any differences using a control group. The water essentially checked out exactly the same as it did before the pond dig-out. The tests included the notes below. The water tests were the same before and after the pond dig out, and the water in the quarantine tank also tested the same as the pond throughout the entire process. For safety, I used two separate test kits - both ran the same numbers.
It is important to note that my pond has a constant leak and constant fill. It's estimated about 2% of the pond water is replaced daily and has been for years. This has always turned out to be a dream; I have an auto filler that adds an inch or so per day, and it acts as a skimmer. It was in play in the "before dig out" and also in the "post dig out", so that didn't change.
What I can't tell is if they became ill in the temporary pond and then got sicker in the pond when they were put back until they died, or if the new pond created the issue. Until I know, I can't put the remaining fish back into their new home. Today I have drained the entire pond, completely cleaned it out, and I'm refilling it tonight with water. The pond dug-out is about 500 gallons. In addition, since all of the tests come back excellent, whatever was in the water, if anything, was undetectable by my kits. Nothing on the fish appeared unusual.. no spots, no bloating, no gill problems, nothing.
I would really appreciate some thoughts. Obviously I should have transferred the fish back sooner and feel terrible about this. I dont know if I would have saved them either way, but I did this expensive renovation so they'd have room to grow, and in the process I lost all of my boys. Before I make any other moves, I bought myself some time with the fish hospital to make the right decisions. But I need others' opinions who care as much as I do.
Thoughts are most appreciated.
Dani
How long has the pond been set up? 15 years - new dig out to 2 foot depth and fish subsequently being moved to a temporary home and then back to their pond caused death. I just don't know if they got sick in the temporary home, or if they got sick because of the new pond.
-Water test readings:
--Ammonia: 0 in old pond, 0 in quarantine, 0 in new dug out pond
--Nitrite: 0ppm - 0 in old pond, 0 in quarantine, 0 in new dug out pond
--Nitrate: 0 ppm - 0 in old pond, 0 in quarantine, 0 in new dug out pond
--pH: 7.2 - 7.4 in quarantine, 7.2 in pond before dig out, 7.2 after dig-out
--KH: Hardness: 55 before and after
--GH: Alkalinity - 120 to 180
--02: - excellent. VERY large waterfall plus aerators. This didn't change from before the digout to after the digout. In the temporary pond, they had a filter and several aerators.
--Salt: None. Fresh water.
-Water Temperature: 68 to 72 degrees - varied but never more than a degree an hour - I always checked for that.
-Concrete, Liner, does it have a Rock Bottom?: Some rocks, same rocks that I've had for years only rinsed off once they went back into the pond. Concrete only.
-What kind of filtration: It didnt have anything in the old pond prior to dig-out (and I had no issues whatsoever) - it had lava rock for flow that a significant amount of water, about 1800 gallons per hour, flowed over which provided the filtration. The new system does have a filter (square box of about 12" x 12") in addition to a new pump in addition to the same lava rocks for the flow.
-Water conditioner/dechlor used(brand): Aquasafe Tetra Aqua
-Routine Pond maintence: none.. unless they experience problems I dont mess with what works.
-Source (Tap or Well): Tap
-What, how much and how often do you feed your fish? 2 times per day, koi pellets and goldfish flakes (combination). PondStix and Flakes by Tetra
-Size of Pond? (gallons or LxWxD): was 200 gallons, now 500 gallons
-Pond inhabitants;How many total, type and Size: 4 koi, 5 goldfish (now 2 goldfish in a quarantine tank) - the two remaining seem to be doing just fine, no more gasping at the surface either.
-New fish or plants added to the Pond? No
A: What type and when?
B: Were they quarantined: They were in a temporary holding tank during a pond dig out, then placed back into the pond after the "test fish" were fine for 24 hours.
-Medications used: When they experienced symptoms (lethargy, breathing at the top of the pond), Paracide Green by Argent (broad spectrum anti parasitic)
-Describe what problems you are seeing: Half are dead. Before they died, they were lethargic, and wanted to be petted (yes, really - or they were blind and didn't know I was there), wouldn't eat. They experienced this in the temporary tank too; I thought it might be shock so I kept monitoring the water readings and everything was normal (from above). The other half after being moved back to another quarantine tank appear fine again. I dont know if they were sick in the original temporary tank, or got sick because of something undetectable in the pond.
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Post #567
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Forum Newbie
Group: Forum Members
Last Login: 25/10/2007 18:27:06
Posts: 2,
Visits: 1
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I forgot to add one thing.. I tested the water again last night after four change outs. Brand new fish... just small goldfish to test. Doing great - four hours later, dead. The water levels all read fine as noted below!mischik (25/10/2007)
Hi everyone,
I am a newbie to this board, and SO glad to have found you all tonight. Thank you for providing this wonderful service.
A bit of history: I have had my koi (4) and goldfish (6) in a pond of about 200 gallons for nearly 2 years; healthy, growing rapidly. The pond was unfortunately not deep enough (concrete pond with a large waterfall, plus additional aerators in case the pump failed) as the koi grew larger.
I decided to bring in a pond specialist, move the fish to a temporary tank, and have the pond dug down to about 2 feet. I live in Southern California (form being pasted below that was recommended) so it doesn't get too cold, but they needed depth as they grew.
The fish were in a temporary holding tank outdoors with their original water for about 4 days. They started gasping for air at the top after 2 and they were lethargic; I did a 50/50 water change-out and the gasping ended. They were also not eating - unusual as they are usually very hungry fish. They had aerators/bubblers, and a filter.
Once the new pond was ready, I filled it up and let it run for about 24 hours. Crystal clear water (not that it's an indicator and I did test the water -- see below), with rocks on the bottom (black rock) as they had before, only rinsed off. I put the same aerators back in, addition to their great aeration they have from a huge water source. (keep in mind they've lived in this pond for years, no problem in that area)
I tested the water with 2 small fish from the store before putting my fish back in. The fish were fine after 24 hours.
I put my fish back into their new, dug out tank. I noticed they were behaving lethargically, wouldn't eat, and then one of my weaker fish that always gets sick first (he's an inbred fancy fin so they often tend to get sick before the others) starting having issues - inability to balance, was upside down (but not lethargic). All of them started gasping again at the surface or hanging at the bottom, and also some tried to get underneath the waterfall.
I took him out of the tank, and moved him to the quarantine pond again (which is of course areated and has a filter along with a heater to 70 degrees fahrenheit). By morning, he was fine - except almost all of the fish in the main pond were dead. Three of the four koi were side-up floating. One koi was on her side barely breathing. I moved her to the quarantine tank where she died about six hours later. (I would have euthanized her, but given that the fancy fish recovered so quickly I thought she may too with new water). Two of the five goldfish were also dead. (I did keep one frozen in case they're of any use in an autopsy; the others are buried in my yard in a fish casket - yes, Im very attached to these fish).
I'm fairly well schooled (have a very powerful microscope, test kits, and I know how to use them fairly well) on koi and goldfish, and I'm a researcher by trade. Before putting the fish in, I ran balance tests (and before and after tests) on the water to compare for any differences using a control group. The water essentially checked out exactly the same as it did before the pond dig-out. The tests included the notes below. The water tests were the same before and after the pond dig out, and the water in the quarantine tank also tested the same as the pond throughout the entire process. For safety, I used two separate test kits - both ran the same numbers.
It is important to note that my pond has a constant leak and constant fill. It's estimated about 2% of the pond water is replaced daily and has been for years. This has always turned out to be a dream; I have an auto filler that adds an inch or so per day, and it acts as a skimmer. It was in play in the "before dig out" and also in the "post dig out", so that didn't change.
What I can't tell is if they became ill in the temporary pond and then got sicker in the pond when they were put back until they died, or if the new pond created the issue. Until I know, I can't put the remaining fish back into their new home. Today I have drained the entire pond, completely cleaned it out, and I'm refilling it tonight with water. The pond dug-out is about 500 gallons. In addition, since all of the tests come back excellent, whatever was in the water, if anything, was undetectable by my kits. Nothing on the fish appeared unusual.. no spots, no bloating, no gill problems, nothing.
I would really appreciate some thoughts. Obviously I should have transferred the fish back sooner and feel terrible about this. I dont know if I would have saved them either way, but I did this expensive renovation so they'd have room to grow, and in the process I lost all of my boys. Before I make any other moves, I bought myself some time with the fish hospital to make the right decisions. But I need others' opinions who care as much as I do.
Thoughts are most appreciated.
Dani
How long has the pond been set up? 15 years - new dig out to 2 foot depth and fish subsequently being moved to a temporary home and then back to their pond caused death. I just don't know if they got sick in the temporary home, or if they got sick because of the new pond.
-Water test readings:
--Ammonia: 0 in old pond, 0 in quarantine, 0 in new dug out pond
--Nitrite: 0ppm - 0 in old pond, 0 in quarantine, 0 in new dug out pond
--Nitrate: 0 ppm - 0 in old pond, 0 in quarantine, 0 in new dug out pond
--pH: 7.2 - 7.4 in quarantine, 7.2 in pond before dig out, 7.2 after dig-out
--KH: Hardness: 55 before and after
--GH: Alkalinity - 120 to 180
--02: - excellent. VERY large waterfall plus aerators. This didn't change from before the digout to after the digout. In the temporary pond, they had a filter and several aerators.
--Salt: None. Fresh water.
-Water Temperature: 68 to 72 degrees - varied but never more than a degree an hour - I always checked for that.
-Concrete, Liner, does it have a Rock Bottom?: Some rocks, same rocks that I've had for years only rinsed off once they went back into the pond. Concrete only.
-What kind of filtration: It didnt have anything in the old pond prior to dig-out (and I had no issues whatsoever) - it had lava rock for flow that a significant amount of water, about 1800 gallons per hour, flowed over which provided the filtration. The new system does have a filter (square box of about 12" x 12") in addition to a new pump in addition to the same lava rocks for the flow.
-Water conditioner/dechlor used(brand): Aquasafe Tetra Aqua
-Routine Pond maintence: none.. unless they experience problems I dont mess with what works.
-Source (Tap or Well): Tap
-What, how much and how often do you feed your fish? 2 times per day, koi pellets and goldfish flakes (combination). PondStix and Flakes by Tetra
-Size of Pond? (gallons or LxWxD): was 200 gallons, now 500 gallons
-Pond inhabitants;How many total, type and Size: 4 koi, 5 goldfish (now 2 goldfish in a quarantine tank) - the two remaining seem to be doing just fine, no more gasping at the surface either.
-New fish or plants added to the Pond? No
A: What type and when?
B: Were they quarantined: They were in a temporary holding tank during a pond dig out, then placed back into the pond after the "test fish" were fine for 24 hours.
-Medications used: When they experienced symptoms (lethargy, breathing at the top of the pond), Paracide Green by Argent (broad spectrum anti parasitic)
-Describe what problems you are seeing: Half are dead. Before they died, they were lethargic, and wanted to be petted (yes, really - or they were blind and didn't know I was there), wouldn't eat. They experienced this in the temporary tank too; I thought it might be shock so I kept monitoring the water readings and everything was normal (from above). The other half after being moved back to another quarantine tank appear fine again. I dont know if they were sick in the original temporary tank, or got sick because of something undetectable in the pond.
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Post #568
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Supreme Being
Group: Forum Members
Last Login: 03/01/2008 02:24:41
Posts: 94,
Visits: 129
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What kind of filtration: It didnt have anything in the old pond prior to dig-out (and I had no issues whatsoever) - it had lava rock for flow that a significant amount of water, about 1800 gallons per hour, flowed over which provided the filtration. The new system does have a filter (square box of about 12" x 12") in addition to a new pump in addition to the same lava rocks for the flow.
sounds like the filter have been over loaded to much to soon we added one fish a week so the filter could build up the bacteria it needs (cycling) also noticed you said you add tap water do you add dechlorinator as tap water has chlorines and chloramines and all kinds of heavy metals that are dangerous to fish your liner you say is concrete have you go a black liner over this or not if not have you seal the concrete with anything i.e g4 if not it could be the concrete leaching into the water your pond is 500G or 2500L so you will need a filter that is at least 5000l or 1000G the water needs to flow through the filters once every 2 hours (contact time)
saph------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://mykoipaintings.piczo.com/?cr=7&rfm=y http://pic7.piczo.com/myfishypics/
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Post #569
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